E035 Lucie Baratte & Dagobert Renouf - Logology Founders

Lucie Baratte 0:00
In its mystery, it's already a story. You can't escape escape from storytelling, because even if you are not conscious of it aware of it, people will imagine things. Because as human beings, we are fictional animals, we need fiction, we need a place to put our emotions to put a sense of purpose, and meaning to understand things because otherwise there will be too much questions. So we need information, practical information, but we also need a story.

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 0:50
Once upon a time, there were millions of businesses struggling every day, they wasted time, effort and money on repetitive tasks that added no value one day, the Better Automation podcast by PROCESIO came to help them find a way. Because of this, these businesses save time, reduce costs, innovate, and make better decisions because of that. These businesses grow, scale and use human creativity to change this world. Hello, my name is Aziz and I'm your host at Better Automation podcast by PROCESIO where I interview the world's top experts and share their very best ideas on how to improve automation in your business, processes, and life. My guest today is Lucie Baratte and Dagobert Renouf. Lucie has been designing brands since 2005. She specializes in visual storytelling, the art of conveying emotion through symbols. She refined her design process by helping startups for more than 15 years and teaching in universities for 10. Lucie is the Author of “Looking for Janis” & “Le chien noir”. And Radio host of “Rebelles Rebelles”. Dagobert Renouf left a high-paid software job to bootstrap LogoLogy with his wife, his father in law doesn’t approve.. Logology helps you get a designer-quality logo for your startup. In 5 minutes., Lucie and Dagobert How are you today?

Lucie Baratte 2:37
I'm very good. Very happy to be here. Thank you for having us Aziz. It's an honor to be here.

Dagobert Renouf 2:43
Yeah, very happy to be here and to do this podcast. You know, we have like, my wife, like, it's gonna be fun, I think to do an interview like, you know, together.

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 2:52
I agree. I'm really happy to have you here. And I'll begin by asking Lucie, a question that I'm curious about. How do symbols, create emotions? And how do symbols lead to create an a brand? I know it's super vague or beginning in this way, but I'm curious about it.

Lucie Baratte 3:15
Oh, but it's a very good question. So I'm happy to begin with this question. I am, I'll try to be the most clear I can be on this because it's a large subject. Well, symbols are, I would begin by saying that symbols are all around us. And symbols are not only visual, like, for example, if someone is if you if you're seeing someone in the street, and this person is raising their hand, or it's his hand, and say hello, it's it's a sign that he will say, oh, this person is saying hello, and it will mean something to you. It is meaningful, it is a message. Excuse me. I'm just looking for my word. So what I wanted to say is that symbols are all around us, and they are very useful to express emotion. For example, I will take another example. Let's talk about color colors are meaningful. A red or a blue tone won't convey the same emotions. If you're looking at an picture or a landscape, full of red, maybe it will warm you or you will be you will feel stress something like that. So symbols are just all the little signs and signals that convey message emotion beyond there appearance. Red is just a color, that red is also a symbol, it conveys a connotation, and it's an emotion. Is it clear from this perhaps

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 5:13
Thank you. I understood. So I find their studio correctly, the symbols are a stimulus that trigger emotion within us. And they don't have to be visual. They can be auditory or kinesthetic, or any kind. And therefore, I will ask you about the brand is a brand something that uses existing symbols within the human psyche, to trigger emotion? Or can we take something that that wasn't a symbol before, and we make it a symbol that triggers emotions for our prospects and audience.

Lucie Baratte 5:52
One thing that I didn't say about symbol, and that is very important to understand brand, is that symbol, are meaningful for a community. For a group of people, you can't just take something and say it will be the symbol of it can begin to be a symbol, but only if it makes it if it's make of symbols, for example, in different culture, you won't have the same meaning. Like I was speaking of the red color, red, in some culture, we are mean danger. And in other culture, like I, I'm thinking of China, for example, where it's a meaning of luck, and success. So when you are using these tools, the stimulus as you said, it's exactly as this you always have to be aware of, who are you talking to? Who are you going to talk to you, when you create a brand, a brand is a symbol made to gather people to gather people around and feel like it's like an identification, it's really a symbols are very ancient, and we can trace their their history from 1000s and 1000s years ago, and I will just take an example of middle age, you know, in middle age, well, in Europe, the Knights will carry coats of arms with different image and colors, like animals and plants and stuff and all this is like the brand because it was a way to say Hi, this is my name, and this are my values. And this is what I represent and if you are okay with this, come and join me. So a brand is really a tool to say to your customers and your audience. Hi, this is me, the brand, the business the product, this is me Come and join me. So you need to find symbols that will speak to your audience, you can just take something from I don't know the ground or from behind and say Oh hi, this is something new, it will never be completely new, it will be something invented, imagine and build for a group of people.

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 8:40
Thank you. So if I understood you correctly, there could be like Carl Jung would say some symbols and archetypes that exist within the subconscious of all human beings that mean the same kind of in many ways. And there are symbols that are specific to a group of people that have a very different meaning come from group to group and you can take something if you're building an audience and create about it like a mythology or give it a meaning that it wasn't there and therefore it becomes a symbol for your people. Is this correct?

Lucie Baratte 9:20
Yes, completely correct. And what is important is to to always have in mind the context in which you are speaking in so who you are speaking to, but just like you said, just like Carl Jung said about archetypes, all human being on Earth, we are living the same emotions and experience. Like I would go again with colors for example, the color the yellow color is often associated everywhere in the world with light because we all have the experience of sin And this is something that brings emotions to us, human human beings. So if we as designer as brand designer combined different symbols, we can create a new one and unblemished a logo, for example, but not only a logo, a brand identities is larger and bigger than a and then a logo to make new message, new storytelling, a new mythology, exactly. And this story, this mythology will be the story that people want to share with you, people want to gather around the fire, you know, to, to imagine new things and to live the emotion with your brand. It's all the brand experience, it's a large, it's a large theme,

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 10:54
thank you, Lucie, and to Dagobert. How do you use this understanding when building your personal brand, online?

Dagobert Renouf 11:06
So I think for a personal brand, it's a bit I would say it's simpler, because when it's you, it's all about being authentic. I think like if you want it to be, you know, if you want your personal brand to be to resonate with people, it has to be like, people have to feel that it's authentic, you know, like, so I feel like when you build your personal brand, it's more like being yourself. And in doing so, you will probably have like, common themes that emerge that are like, for example, for me, who is building my personal brand, is going to be about being fun, about being a bit, you know, witty, and also supportive, you know, and that's going to be more like the thing that I spontaneously. That's my, that's my normal posture. Like, that's the way I am, you know. And so then personal branding just becomes a way of clarifying that. And making that more obvious and putting this, you know, making it visible, you know, by putting emphasis on it. Whether it's visually, or like, you know, by the things you've talked about, and what's your repeat, you know, hyperbole. But yeah, it's mostly about being authentic, and then trying to stay consistent with that. So people can, because, yeah, there's also this thing about repeating, and being consistent. It's a big part of it, like, what people remember about you, like, what's the thing that you're always doing that people can see you do? And at the end of the day, that's what they associate with you. Just like if they see your logo all the time, eventually, they know, you know what the logo is about? So yeah, now, with my personal branding, I didn't go very far with like logos or you know, anything goes. I think the best Personal Branding is just yourself and your picture. But, but yeah, there's definitely a way to put emphasis on the values and qualities you you're about Thank

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 13:14
you. And to play the devil's advocate a little bit, go back. Some people will say we have lived for millions of years without needing a personal brand. And as you said, be yourself Be authentic. So why should they care about having a personal brand? Is this something that was invented just online or nearby some people to sell new things to founders and to other people? Or why does it become important today? While 100 years ago, maybe it was only for celebrities and movie stars and fictional characters? Well, I

Dagobert Renouf 13:57
think it's just because now you have way more small celebrities, you know, social media, you have tons of influencers, and not just influencers, like people who create, you know, create independent creators who want to make a living with their creations, or in the startup founders, I guess. It's like, basically, everything. Like, if you start running a small business, you I mean, binding is super important. So it's just that I think the reason why we have personal branding now is because you have lots of solo indie businesses, you know, small creators, small business owners that are online, and so you need kind of like a personal brand, to take yourself further. And he like, you know, have a more reach more people now. Yeah, and I think it's about and also maybe because of the competition, I think it's also just like, for example, people, even people who are not creators, or entrepreneurs were just looking for a job, but they want to stand out in the market. getting like a brand of being seen as an expert in the topic or something like that this can give them an edge. So it's kind of like more like, more and more competition, you know, for like good jobs or you know, making your company stand out or making your creations visible with so many people, you know, fighting for attention with social media. And so personal branding is a way to go from just some random guy on the internet to, okay, this person has like, a clear goal, clear purpose, I can identify things that I resonate with or not. And it's more effective, and you know, getting photo wheels, getting people to care about what you say on that. Thank

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 15:40
you so much. And I have more questions that go back. But for Lucy, I remember you mentioned storytelling and sitting around on a camp of fire, and how that relates to brand and symbols. But how does narrative play a role within that? Because it wasn't clear to me can you speak about narrative? What is it? How does it interact with symbols and with branding?

Lucie Baratte 16:08
Well, symbols are always the, the spark of a narrative, it begin with a symbol, just a symbol conveys emotion, it can conveys a meaning, it can conveys mystery, and it in its mystery, it's already a story, you can't escape escape from storytelling, because even if you are not conscious of it, aware of it, people will imagine things because as human beings, we are fictional animals, we need fiction, we need a place to to put our emotions to put a sense of purpose a meaning to understand things, because otherwise there will be too much questions. So, we need information, practical information, but we also need a story to understand. So, when you build a brand, you will you can begin with the values you want to convey, it's I would say the easier path and the most logical, but you can begin with a story and usually, that two dimension will meet during the process of designing a brand you have the value, but the value it will begin to tell story. For example, if you are an entrepreneur and the value you carry is about authenticity, success are you like challenges and you also like support, you are very supportive, you like to be with mates, you like to learn for example, this are a compilation of values, but I can tell a story from that you are telling the story of a young entrepreneurs in time partner who is meeting other in co working and so on, and they build together a new product, just I'm just saying thing like imagining things, but you see how can we go on a on a narrative just from hints, hints of values, and all the narratives you can imagine is a way to be identify as a brand be identify as a person a service and so on, but also to create links and imagine the future of your business because when you know, what you are, what you represent, what your brand is, and what is the message that you get that you carry it with you, you are able to imagine the future of your business and you are able to imagine Can you interact with your audience so, so,

Dagobert Renouf 19:14
how do you put that into the symbol? Well, the

Lucie Baratte 19:17
symbols are like evidence in a police investigation, like imagine the private detective, you will take the different pieces and maybe you will you will you will use pieces by pieces to tell the story. But in each time you are in action of doing something with the brand expressing something or creating or designing something with your business and in a go to market purpose. You will use symbols because as I said before, see symbols are everywhere symbols are shapes, symbols or colors, symbols of font symbols are sounds, symbols are gestures. So, you will intentionally be careful to each pieces of this each symbol you are using. And it's like writing a story, you will begin with one piece one action. And after a while you will have a complete narrative. But you will have also, like you said before about consistency, you won't have to say it again, again and again and again, in order to be to be heard, am I am I clear? Or do you need more precise, precise information?

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 20:48
It's very clear. And I want to take this deeper and get your opinion on it. Some experts will say that nowadays brands are much bigger than just values and symbols and colors, but people have lost their connection with religion. So they're looking for many religions through their brand. And that's why as you see religion is full of symbols, rituals, deeper meaning, or, and therefore, your brand should have a deep history, it should have symbols, it should have saints and devils, and it should have a heaven and hell and a future. Do you agree with this? What's your perspective on it, it's, many people say that the brand should fill the void or the narrative void that was left by too many people becoming secular. While before this was filled with their religion,

Lucie Baratte 21:44
I don't know if it's good or bad, but I think it is already the case. And whatever we want it or not, it is already the case. We can also say that in another way, we could also say that maybe religions had been very efficient in brand design, even without knowing it. Because brand design comes with a narrative, as I said, with symbols, and with rituals, and tradition, and the fact that you go again, and again, repeating things. So it's the experience of the brain, like you can experience the rituals of religion, you can experience religion, and have emotions. When you think of religion, I would say aside from faith from pure faith, but just the rituals, just like you have with the brand, just like you have with, I would say, even a yogurt that you love, since you are a child, and you will have memories, sharing these memories with maybe your family, and the taste and the color of the of the packaging, and the design of the logo and the advertising that you that you used to love. And we tend to be attach to it. Because it's like when you we, as we grow with this culture, and if you if you don't find a meaning in life, we get, we tend to be attached to these experience, like true and, and meaningful experiences. Like when you are growing old, and you can become nostalgic of your childhood and you will, I don't know, maybe think of brands that you used to love when you were a child. And suddenly these brands will, will will be like friends to you. So I don't know if it's good or bad. But I'm pretty sure that brands are already substitutes to something else. And maybe it's religion for people who don't find their way. And the way we'll be being around brands that you love, like you have friends. But yeah, it's brands are everywhere, everywhere you needed to win every where we need a choice. And you know, I just want to add this before you go on is that today and nowadays we are in a culture where we have so many information going on all the time on the internet and, and all the modern society I would say television and so many distractions, so many stories, so many books, so many movies like I was born in the 80s and I didn't have the opportunity to see so many TV shows and so on. So we have so many products so it's so much it is too much for for we single human Eating, when you go to the supermarket and you have to make a choice, you want to do it quick. And brands are there to help us make choice because you will choose something that you like something that you love, something you feel close to. And it's always the same. So brands are doing their best today to stand out from the crowd because of this because of the too much. I don't know where to go. situation.

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 25:32
Thank you. And that go back? Do you believe a lot of founders understand the depth of branding? Because a lot of them, if you ask them, What is your brand? They show you a logo now or say Oh yes, I just have a logo and some colors and whatever it is. So two things. How does logo ology help people who are building a brand? Do you raise awareness that a brand is more than a logo, and I know you offer that service, and it's smart marketing to begin with what people want, and then give them more? Or what's your perspective, or the goal, or the contribution that logo ology does to branding, and that service that is needed, like Lucy spoke about whether it is for easier choice for added meaning, or for being something that is important in this world rather than a transactional? thing?

Dagobert Renouf 26:34
Yeah, it's funny, you talk about founders, maybe not understanding the value of blending, because even me, I feel like, I'm understanding more like that more every day that it's more important than a thought. Because I myself tend to believe that what matters is the product, what matters is, you know, the service. Like, it's so important, like, the way people remember you, the way they will talk about you, all of that is influenced by your branding. And, of course, branding is not just the logo, like there's this saying, I don't know who it's from, but I had it and it really stuck with me, it's like, branding, is what people remember about too. And I don't know, a better definition, I guess. It's just, I mean, it's not just visual planning. It's like branding in general. But like, blending is like, yeah, what do you remember about this company, and, and this will mostly come down not to just the logo, but it's going to come down to the experience you have. So for example, amazing customer support is good binding. Like when you remember, like you had a problem, and they helped you quickly, you remember that positive things about it. And that's like, positive thing for them when the steak, beautiful thing for them when, and that's going to help with word of mouth and all of that. So now the way we help with legality is, I mean, our ambition with legality was never to do just the logo. No, no, it was always to help people. As you as you suspected, it was always to help people figure out again, from who they are and what their company is not like, act like somebody else by like, oh, I want to look like this. That's not what we do. It's more like, who are you? Like, what are your values? And what are your company values, and who is your market and who is your audience and from that, we tell them, Okay, so the best way to connect emotionally with these people is going to be with this kind of logos. So you know, that's how legality work, like you take the quiz about your values. And then we tell you, these are the colors, these are the fonts, and these are the logos that you know, X PRIZE that you know, and then you can buy a logo, you know, if you if you want to get started, because the goal is also to help founders who are just getting started because branding is important that like any stage, but like when you're beginning and you don't have money, you shouldn't spend 1000s of dollars on a brand designer, because it's like, it's just too big of a risk. And it's not us it's not it's not useful enough at this stage. It's more like you need something to look good and to be consistent with your message so people can like want to try your product, but you should still also focus on building your product and not spend all your money on branding. So that's like the whole idea. And then what we're doing now because they look ology has such a strong foundation of like understanding the values of the company. Then we can like expand to everything and now we're like expanding to providing that's in the works should be launched, tentatively in September. And the goal is like to give people not just the logo but like an entire guide about their plan. So like, what what is the voice of your brand? How do you talk about it? What are like and beyond just the main font and colors? Like? What are the kinds of colors you can use in all your marketing materials? How to use different fonts? How to design your website? Like how do you make your brand, like shine everywhere? And how do you talk about your product. So that it's, you know, it really is consistent every step of the way. Because if you want people to remember you for something, there's nothing better than consistency. Like, if they see the same, if they get the same kind of feeling interacting with you, whether it's on Instagram, whether it's on the website, whether when is they heard you on the phone, like, if they get the same kind of feeling that it's reinforcing. And then eventually, this is your brand to think they remember. So that's why it's important to have, the logo is basically where everything converges, like the colors, the shape, the emotion, it's kind of like the core of like, like too small, like diamond at the Center for like, then it's how everything expresses around that as a kind of like, as an expression of this core thing. And, you know, so that's what we're gonna be focusing on well, you know, later this year,

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 31:16
thank you, that's really good, you're always evolving. And I also know, you're focused a lot on not adding more features that people don't want. So it's about knowing also what people will buy, because the fact that you value something doesn't mean other people will. And that's what we all entrepreneurs have to struggle with. To Lucy, I have this question. Some people are very hesitant to choose values for their brand, for two reasons. One of them, they don't really spend enough time reflecting to understand what their values are. They don't know themselves as as you know, philosophically, know yourself is the first thing or the purpose of life, or at least the first purpose before you find your life purpose. And secondly, they notice that every five or seven years they change as a human being, their values change. And so they worry, they think, Well, what if I choose my brand today, and these values that now I like, but later on, I feel stuck, because I will not believe in those values in the same way anymore, I will have new values. What's your perspective on this that a lot of people are just living and not spending enough time thinking about what is meaningful to them in order to know the values that will matter to their brand, as well as worrying that maybe they will change their opinion, another day, and they don't want to be stuck?

Lucie Baratte 32:55
Well, I will say to them that there is two important thing here. The first important thing is that, whenever you want it on out, you will have to take time for it. Because as we'd say, as we said before, from the moment you want to go to market with your product or your service, you can't escape brand. Even if you think there is no brand, it's already branding, it could be a bad branding, but it's branding. So it's better if you can have an insight on the situation, at least control a little bit the image of your business. And the second thing, and maybe it can relieve some founders, who are anxious about this is that the brand is not really about you. It's not you, well, you can have a personal brand, that's something but brand is something different. Brand is not you, like your business is not you, your product is not you, your service is not you, even if you love it, like with your own heart. And, and, and you feel like it's you, it's not you. And the brand is the image of the business. So it's you can take a little step back, you know, and look at it and, and in and design your brand like you're designing your product or your service. So it's, it's less complicated, I think this way, because you can spend time just thinking about what are your core values now? And what are the core values you share with your audience? And maybe in the future, you'll change and maybe in the future, your audience will change? You can you can't know about this but it's not that important. Because brand can evolve with you, you can make it change a little bit. And it's, it's, it's, it's yeah, it's frequent that brands are changing through times. For example, I remember the time where Airbnb changes, change, they're completely changed their brand design, they change the logos and inks and colors etc. And at the time, a part of, of Airbnb audience were was very angry about this, I remember that some work we found is not good and not possible. But in the end, I think Airbnb was right, because the company found maybe a new audience was chasing a new perspective on the business. And maybe it's not the perspective, the core audience, the first audience loved in the beginning, but you know, a company can change. So brand can evolve with the company. So it's not so risky, you can change so it's not that bad. But you have to take time to consider this piece of your work, at least a little bit. Just, it's why that's why for example, with log ology we are we are giving the questionnaire in the beginning. So you can take the questionnaire, learn about the value, your own values, and get proposals for color and logos. And if you begin with this, you already on the contracts.

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 36:47
Thank you. That's fantastic. This conversation could go on for a long, long, long time. But can both of you just share? What is logo ology for you? What is the meaning of it? As well as if people want to use your services? What does logo ology offer? Where can they find out more? And I'll make sure to write the website and the episode description so that Golbez, you can begin just explain to you, what does it mean the meaning or the brand of logo ology. And then Lucy as well, so that we discover together different perspectives,

Dagobert Renouf 37:28
it's a good idea to do it this way. So have different perspectives. So for me, it's really like it's a way to empower you, if you're starting a new project, like because I identify a lot with like, because I am myself, like founder, building a startup, you know, and before this one, I had tons of ideas, tons of things I wanted to build. And, you know, I mean, we always know that branding matters that we should do it. But it seemed like complex and accessible. It definitely did for me, before I met Lucy, and then she started doing all my blinds, because you know, she's my wife. So we were all supporting each other. I was building her websites, he was building my brands. But so for me, that's what it is. It's about giving access to the vision of a blind designer. Like, whenever you need it, even if you can't afford like a full on designer yet. And it's just like empowering you. It's like, okay, I have this new project. Let me check like ology, and see what brands I can build around it. And it's like, to me, that's the feeling I want. I mean, I see a lot of customers have and as the feeling I want two people to happen to us, their goal is they feel empowered. Like, it's not just like an ID, you have a becomes a real like, once you build it, and you have like, the brand, okay, I have, I have a thing now. It's not just in my head, it exists. And it's something I can share with the world. And it's very motivating and very empowering. So that's really the goal of the garage is to empower you like that.

Lucie Baratte 39:12
I would just add that lug ology is a way for me to put all my expertise and all that I've learned as a, as a brand designer through these, these these years in the service to help entrepreneurs, while I'm fond of ideas, and I'm and I'm fond of this energy that leads us as intrapreneurs to create new things to to go on new project and to imagine the future or even the present that you know, there's a beautiful desire in each of us to invent our life or to change the world even better. Is to something small, doesn't have to be big, but I really liked the small ideas too. And I thought that we look ology, I could take all my expertise in a tool in something simple automated, that everybody in the world with just one click on the internet could could could get. So that's really about this, it's like, it's about giving the opportunity to every entrepreneur with a low budget, to have new a brand new image and to feel at ease to communicate, because I know from experience with working with clients before, that when you have a good brand design, even brand identity, you will have a boost of confidence and a boost of confidence allows you to find your audience find customers. And yeah, it's like going to a meeting with a new suit or a new dress, if you're a woman, you know, you feel better. So that's what I can give to the world. So I, I'm doing it,

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 41:23
thank you, I'm happy to say that you're creating meaning for yourself as well, which is very important. Even for entrepreneurs. An important part of creating the brand is not only to create meaning for the audience, but for them to wake up feeling what they do is valuable is contributing to the world is expressing their talent and their abilities to a larger thing. Do you agree with this? That? In some ways, a brand? Yes, is about others. But it's a tool for you to feel you're expressing your purpose on this earth? And in this life? What do you think Lucy can talk about as well?

Lucie Baratte 42:08
I totally agree with you as is on this. It's completely Yes, it's exactly this. It's not only about others, but it's also about how you will contribute to the world. And what is the story you are gonna detail other and share with others? Yeah, I think it's really a beautiful thing. Sometimes we think of branding, I can imagine some funders, thinking about branding, like, like, they think about marketing or advertising is something that they don't want to have in their life. But now it can be something beautiful, it's just a great tool, a great narrative tool to bring to brings us together, and to change the world, whatever we want to contribute.

Dagobert Renouf 43:01
And that's interesting the relationship with like, the creator of the company, and their own brand, because I feel like my experience, at least during the startup is like, if you want to go anywhere, you know, with your project, you have to really believe in it, you have to care about it. Because it's going to be so tough. If you don't care about it anyway, like you're gonna give up when it gets hot. So this branding part, it's what I think interesting is like, it's for the customers. Because you know, but like, it's also for you, it's kind of like a bit of personal branding, like you have to be to love your own brand. And it has to represent also you as the leader and the founder of the company. Because you know, because you have all sorts of feel like it's I mean, it's useful for you as well. And it's useful for others to see your relationship between you and your plan. Because like, again, this consistency, again, the brand is who you are and what people will remember you with. So when you look at like the brand of, you know, Elon Musk, and you look at like the brand of Tesla, or the brand of SpaceX. It's both brands who are like, who look, you know, pretty visionary, and a bit aggressive and a bit like, you know, over the top, and that's who he is as a founder too. And there's something you know, that makes sense of having consistency between who you are as a founder, like, you know, the brand of your company, when at the same time remembering that the brand is mostly for your customers. So you need to you know, design it and like, you know, focus on the right aspects, but like, there's definitely parts of you know, of both.

Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 44:44
Thank you so much Lucie and Dagobert and of course, I thank PROCESIO which is makes this podcast possible. PROCESIO is the modern, low code, no code platform for advanced automation and creating an enterprise grade backend for your software. And I'm sure many founders will find that very useful. So anybody who's listening right now and watching can get a totally free fully functional account that PROCESIO.app. And for those with higher business needs, there is an exclusive, very generous 50% discount code, which is BETTER50OFF one word in capital letters, more information in the episode, description. Thank you, Dagobert. Thank you, Lucie. This was my privilege, my honor. That's your wonderful, insightful conversation. And I wish you to keep going. You're doing great things in this world.

Dagobert Renouf 45:45
Thank you so much.

Lucie Baratte 45:46
Thank you so much.